--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 19:25:49 +0300 From: Sam Laur Subject: PIC history, PIC1650? To: PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] It's about the PIC so it's not strictly [OT]... :-) I study EE at the local university, and I'm a curious sort of fellow. So, I've been looking for information on the birth and development of microcontrollers, and now it's PIC's turn. I've heard mostly vague information, that it was created in the late 70's as an I/O controller for the General Instruments CP1600 microprocessor. However, I'm looking for hard facts - datasheets, etc. Specifically, on memory (internal or external?), clock speeds, amount of I/O lines, etc. You name it. Because I've bumped into a chip called "PIC1650" or "PIC1650A-532" in catalogs, I have a feeling I could still get a few for research purposes. Of course it would be good to know how the PICs developed, up to the early 1990's. I have databooks from 1994 onwards, so that's probably a good cutoff point. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:20:27 +0200 From: Marco DI LEO Subject: Re: PIC history, PIC1650, AY-3-8910, SP0256 et al. To: PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) Sam Laur wrote: > > I've heard mostly vague information, that it was created in the late > 70's as an I/O controller for the General Instruments CP1600 > microprocessor. However, I'm looking for hard facts - datasheets, > etc. Specifically, on memory (internal or external?), clock speeds, > amount of I/O lines, etc. You name it. Because I've bumped into a > chip called "PIC1650" or "PIC1650A-532" in catalogs, I have a > feeling I could still get a few for research purposes. > > Of course it would be good to know how the PICs developed, up to > the early 1990's. I have databooks from 1994 onwards, so that's > probably a good cutoff point. In my vintage *1982* General Instruments' "Microelectronics Data Catalog" there is a "PIC Series" section containing the PIC1650A (and others). >From the datasheet: 8 Bit Microcomputer User programmable Intelligent controller for stand-alone applications 32 8-bit RAM registers 512 x 12-bit program ROM Arithmetic Logic Unit Real Time Clock/Counter Self-contained oscillator Access to RAM register inherent in instruction 4 set of 8 user defined TTL-compatible Input/Output lines 2 level stack for subroutine nesting The PIC1650A appear to be a 40 pin IC. It has 32 bidirectional I/O ports i.e. there is no TRIS register for the ports. The output stage has an Open Collector/Pull up arrangement and the input buffer is always connected to the pin. To be able to read a pin the corresponding output latch must be set in the high state so that an external open collector can drive the pin low. Big troubles when using BSF/BCF to change a bit in the output... The 'A' in the chip name identify the RC (or external) oscillator up to 1MHz. There is a PIC1650XT that allows to use a crystal, resonator, LC or external oscillator. The two chips seem identical. In the same book there is a PIC1654 Preliminary, PIC1655A/XT, PIC16C55 (this one with the TRIS), PIC1656, PIC1670 (13-bit and a hack for the Read/Modify/Write on the I/O pins) and the PIC1663, PIC16C64, PIC1665 that are 64-pin with external ROM for development and prototyping. For the development tools there are: PICAL - PIC Cross Assembler "...The assembler program, written in Fortran, is usually supplied as 9 track, 1600 BPI, 80 column card image records, unblocked and unlabeled magnetic tapes in either EBCDIC or ASCII code..." (I know I'm starting the "remember the ol' good times" thread here :-) PICES II - PIC In-Circuit Emulation System "...The User Processor is a ROM-less PIC microcomputer with external RAM...The control processor is a CP1600 sixteen bit microprocessor with 12K of program ROM and 2K of RAM..." The PIC1650-532 should be a masked version of the PIC1650A/XT but I don't know the function of the chip: the -020 is an "Economega IV TV PPL Tuning System Control" and the -536 is a "TELEVIEW Autodialer/Terminal Identifier". If someone is interested I can try to scan some pages from the databook and put them on the web. On a different topic: in the same book there are also the datasheets for the AY-3-8910 Programmable Sound Generator and the SP0256-AL2 Narrator Speech Processor (I should have some of the latter laying somewhere since I used them in a project in 1985...). Question: Is there someone on the list that happen to have (and wishing to sell, even surplus) some AY-3-8500, AY-3-860x or AY-3-8765 (they are listed in the book)? These are the chips for the (very) old videogames like: balls & paddle, roadrace, motor cycle, etc. I would just *love* to have one to build an unit... Ciao Marco ---- Marco DI LEO m.dileo@bigfoot.com http://members.tripod.com/~mdileo/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 09:18:59 -0300 From: "Ing. Marcelo Fornaso" Subject: Re: PIC history, PIC1650, AY-3-8910, SP0256 et al. To: PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 Hi! I've got a very old but brand new chip: AY-3-8500 GIMT 7706 As you see it's 22 years old! I bought it when I was an Electronics Engineering student, but never built the unit. It's yours for free if you want it. The only matter is we're (the chip and me) in Argentina (in Patagonia, at the far south), so it'll +take a long by surface mail. Anyway I'll be waiting your coordinates. Ing. Marcelo M. Fornaso Vte. Lopez y Planes 285 8324 Cipolletti Argentina Te: +54(299)477-4469 www.sysameri.com/marcelo/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Marco DI LEO To: PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 12:20 PM Subject: Re: PIC history, PIC1650, AY-3-8910, SP0256 et al. Question: Is there someone on the list that happen to have (and wishing to sell, even surplus) some AY-3-8500, AY-3-860x or AY-3-8765 (they are listed in the book)? These are the chips for the (very) old videogames like: balls & paddle, roadrace, motor cycle, etc. I would just *love* to have one to build an unit... Ciao Marco ---- Marco DI LEO m.dileo@bigfoot.com http://members.tripod.com/~mdileo/ ~Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 08:59:58 -0400 From: tmariner Subject: Re: PIC history, PIC1650, AY-3-8910, SP0256 et al. To: PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Wow are you guys dragging up memories!!! The 1650 was the first commercially available PIC and the -xxx series denoted one with a particular program that was used for some purpose. The -532 strikes a chord, but I can't remember what it did. The AY8910 was the world's first digital sound generator. It had three channels and was developed when us folks working on the video game chip set decided that viewers were also listeners. My reason (believe it or not) for recommending three channels was that I was working on a racing game that had two side by side tracks and I needed a channel for each track and another for miscellaneous effects. It was followed by a much improved AY8930 but by that time the game was over. By the way, the silicon designer I worked with on the 8930 is now the editor in chief of an important magazine in our industry. The SP0256 was a very neat second generation speech processor that had on-board rom for holding a compressed form of bits that were decoded into the excitation parameters and filter coefficient for the "model of the vocal tract". We did several pre-programmed versions including the -AL2 which contained an allaphone set that could be used to construct rather robotic sounding speech and a few sound effects. The PICAL was indeed a fortran-based assembler which produced some wonderful relocatable code in a form that predates but has a lot of the philosphical features of the COFF format of compiler output. The reason for the fortran base was the available machines at the time were main frames. Later (again believe it or not) my team did an assembler written in basic (PICALB) for the same reason -- The Apple machines were the only personal computers in large circulation and their native code was Basic. Another historical note -- when Apple sent us the code for the Basic Interpreter in the Apple II, the author's name was in the first few lines of comments -- Steve Wozniak. The PICES was this large metal box that successfully emulated the PIC series and was written using the same fortan-based assembler. We wanted to call it an "ICE", but the name was already trademarked. Sorry for the nostalgia trip and other worthless trivia. The tools, the parts and the techniques we have now make our job so much easier. But the biggest factor, of course, is the raw talent typified by this list that can really put all this together into great products! Tom > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 09:15:56 -0400 From: Andy Kunz Subject: Re: PIC history, PIC1650, AY-3-8910, SP0256 et al. To: PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 What impresses me most about Tom's letter was that he doesn't get into reams and reams of people who were part of the team. Back then (and still now) the best programs (and systems) are those which are usually put together by a very small set of folks. One nice part of PICs is there isn't room to put a bunch of programmers on one PIC program! Andy At 08:59 AM 9/1/99 -0400, you wrote: >Wow are you guys dragging up memories!!! > >The 1650 was the first commercially available PIC and the -xxx series >denoted one with a particular program that was used for some purpose. >The -532 strikes a chord, but I can't remember what it did. > >The AY8910 was the world's first digital sound generator. It had three >channels and was developed when us folks working on the video game chip set >decided that viewers were also listeners. My reason (believe it or not) for >recommending three channels was that I was working on a racing game that had >two side by side tracks and I needed a channel for each track and another >for miscellaneous effects. It was followed by a much improved AY8930 but by >that time the game was over. By the way, the silicon designer I worked with >on the 8930 is now the editor in chief of an important magazine in our >industry. > >The SP0256 was a very neat second generation speech processor that had >on-board rom for holding a compressed form of bits that were decoded into >the excitation parameters and filter coefficient for the "model of the vocal >tract". We did several pre-programmed versions including the -AL2 which >contained an allaphone set that could be used to construct rather robotic >sounding speech and a few sound effects. > >The PICAL was indeed a fortran-based assembler which produced some wonderful >relocatable code in a form that predates but has a lot of the philosphical >features of the COFF format of compiler output. The reason for the fortran >base was the available machines at the time were main frames. Later (again >believe it or not) my team did an assembler written in basic (PICALB) for >the same reason -- The Apple machines were the only personal computers in >large circulation and their native code was Basic. Another historical >note -- when Apple sent us the code for the Basic Interpreter in the Apple >II, the author's name was in the first few lines of comments -- Steve >Wozniak. > >The PICES was this large metal box that successfully emulated the PIC series >and was written using the same fortan-based assembler. We wanted to call it >an "ICE", but the name was already trademarked. > >Sorry for the nostalgia trip and other worthless trivia. The tools, the >parts and the techniques we have now make our job so much easier. But the >biggest factor, of course, is the raw talent typified by this list that can >really put all this together into great products! > >Tom > >> ================================================================== Andy Kunz Life is what we do to prepare for Eternity ------------------------------------------------------------------ andy@rc-hydros.com http://www.rc-hydros.com - Race Boats andy@montanadesign.com http://www.montanadesign.com - Electronics ================================================================== --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:53:39 EDT From: Harold Hallikainen Subject: Re: PIC history, PIC1650, AY-3-8910, SP0256 et al. To: PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 I recall reading in 1977 that Cal Poly used a PIC to control the animation in a Rose Float (see http://cprf.asi.calpoly.edu/History/1977.html ). As I recall, PIC stood for Pachyderm I... Controller (I don't recall what the I was). Harold Harold Hallikainen harold@hallikainen.com Hallikainen & Friends, Inc. See the FCC Rules at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules and comments filed in LPFM proceeding at http://hallikainen.com/lpfm ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 01:22:59 +1200 From: Russell McMahon Subject: Re: PIC history, PIC1650, AY-3-8910, SP0256 et al. To: PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 Aaah! - reminiscence time. We built a video game using these in about 1975 - 1976. Yep, 22 years old would be about right. This was THE gee whizz chip to have at that stage. It had a fantastic FOUR games as I recall. I probably have it in the deep dark dungeon still (aka my Museum :-)). Before that Electronics Australia did firstly a horrendous design with TTL and several boards to do just Pong and then followed this by a cunning design using CMOS and cheating as hard as possible. AFAIR this design first introduced me to the use of CMOS gates with R/C as required as analog delays, monostables etc. This was crucial in this design as it generated TV V & H sync, bat position (horizontal only?) x 2 and the incredible moving ball with X and Y freedom - amazing! (or, it was then). Also delays needed for bat and ball width & depth etc. Nowadays the circuit would hardly rate a second glance but then it was an eye opener to me. Russell McMahon ============================= Hi! I've got a very old but brand new chip: AY-3-8500 GIMT 7706 As you see it's 22 years old! I bought it when I was an Electronics Engineering student, but never built the unit. It's yours for free if you want it. The only matter is we're (the chip and me) in Argentina (in Patagonia, at the far south), so it'll take a long by surface mail. Anyway I'll be waiting your coordinates. Ing. Marcelo M. Fornaso Vte. Lopez y Planes 285 8324 Cipolletti Argentina Te: (299)477-4469 www.sysameri.com/marcelo/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Marco DI LEO To: PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 12:20 PM Subject: Re: PIC history, PIC1650, AY-3-8910, SP0256 et al. Question: Is there someone on the list that happen to have (and wishing to sell, even surplus) some AY-3-8500, AY-3-860x or AY-3-8765 (they are listed in the book)? These are the chips for the (very) old videogames like: balls & paddle, roadrace, motor cycle, etc. I would just *love* to have one to build an unit... Ciao Marco ---- Marco DI LEO m.dileo@bigfoot.com http://members.tripod.com/~mdileo/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:41:36 +0100 From: Steve Thackery Subject: Re: PIC history, PIC1650, AY-3-8910, SP0256 et al. To: PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 > Nowadays the circuit would hardly rate > a second glance but then it was an eye opener to me. I disagree! I think it would most likely receive lots of admiring glances from modern electronics designers. The thing is, no-one would dream of implementing Pong in hardware these days: it's just crying out for a software solution. Similarly, video signal generation is just handed over to a two buck chip these days. No, I would say that for sheer ingenuity, electronics designs probably peaked back in the late '70s (i.e. before the widespread adoption of microprocessors and microcontrollers, and VLSI chips). I've seen some amazing stuff done with boards chock full of CMOS and TTL chips (plus the inevitable analogue driver board bristling with power transistors and heat sinks!). You gotta hand it to those guys, they were just brilliant. I have a pal who used to work in the games machine industry (Bell Fruit in the UK). Monstrously complex non-microprocessor designs continued on for ages in their industry. The manufactuers had access to a wide range of functional modules which they'd developed over the years and were very well tried and tested. They had a tremendous amount invested in those designs, and they had a tremendous amount invested in the expertise and training of their electronics guys. Some games machines from the late 70's and even early 80's were just packed with PCBs, every one plastered with CMOS and TTL. You can imagine that it was pretty scary to throw that lot away and start again with a microprocessor! It means a complete revamp of your entire development and manufacturing environment, plus a big churn of staff, plus another revamp of the support infrastructure........ There was also an interesting interim period when they would use EPROMS - i.e. a microprocessor support chip - in non-micro applications. For example, they would often use them to store those jazzy lighting sequences for the front panel. The EPROM was built into the TTL/CMOS circuitry, rather than sitting on an address and data bus. Ah, reminiscing is good for the soul! Or are we old farts just being boring bastards? Steve Thackery Suffolk, England. Web Site: http://www.btinternet.com/~stevethack/ ~ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 19:54:34 -0400 From: "Sean H. Breheny" Subject: Re: PIC history, PIC1650, AY-3-8910, SP0256 et al. To: PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) -- [Cornell Modified] At 12:41 AM 9/2/99 +0100, you wrote: >I disagree! I think it would most likely receive lots of admiring glances >from modern electronics designers. The thing is, no-one would dream of >implementing Pong in hardware these days: it's just crying out for a >software solution. Similarly, video signal generation is just handed over >to a two buck chip these days. > >No, I would say that for sheer ingenuity, electronics designs probably >peaked back in the late '70s (i.e. before the widespread adoption of [SNIP] I agree. In fact, I worry about the future of electronics because we may not have enough newbies who are learning how to exhibit such ingenuity in their designs. Sean | | Sean Breheny | Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM | Electrical Engineering Student \--------------=---------------- Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7 mailto:shb7@cornell.edu ICQ #: 3329174 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 10:48:01 +1000 From: Dennis Plunkett Subject: Re: PIC history, PIC1650, AY-3-8910, SP0256 et al. To: PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) At 00:41 2/09/99 +0100, you wrote: >> Nowadays the circuit would hardly rate >> a second glance but then it was an eye opener to me. > >I disagree! I think it would most likely receive lots of admiring glances >from modern electronics designers. The thing is, no-one would dream of >implementing Pong in hardware these days: it's just crying out for a >software solution. Similarly, video signal generation is just handed over >to a two buck chip these days. > >No, I would say that for sheer ingenuity, electronics designs probably >peaked back in the late '70s (i.e. before the widespread adoption of >microprocessors and microcontrollers, and VLSI chips). I've seen some >amazing stuff done with boards chock full of CMOS and TTL chips (plus the >inevitable analogue driver board bristling with power transistors and heat >sinks!). You gotta hand it to those guys, they were just brilliant. > >I have a pal who used to work in the games machine industry (Bell Fruit in >the UK). Monstrously complex non-microprocessor designs continued on for >ages in their industry. The manufactuers had access to a wide range of >functional modules which they'd developed over the years and were very well >tried and tested. They had a tremendous amount invested in those designs, >and they had a tremendous amount invested in the expertise and training of >their electronics guys. Some games machines from the late 70's and even >early 80's were just packed with PCBs, every one plastered with CMOS and >TTL. You can imagine that it was pretty scary to throw that lot away and >start again with a microprocessor! It means a complete revamp of your >entire development and manufacturing environment, plus a big churn of staff, >plus another revamp of the support infrastructure........ > >There was also an interesting interim period when they would use EPROMS - >i.e. a microprocessor support chip - in non-micro applications. For >example, they would often use them to store those jazzy lighting sequences >for the front panel. The EPROM was built into the TTL/CMOS circuitry, >rather than sitting on an address and data bus. > The ERPOMS where used to simulate complex logic, just as an FPGA or GA can be used today Dennis >Ah, reminiscing is good for the soul! Or are we old farts just being boring >bastards? > >Steve Thackery >Suffolk, England. >Web Site: http://www.btinternet.com/~stevethack/ > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 19:11:59 +1200 From: Russell McMahon Subject: Re: PIC history, PIC1650, AY-3-8910, SP0256 et al. To: PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 >>There was also an interesting interim period when they would use EPROMS - >>i.e. a microprocessor support chip - in non-micro applications. For >>example, they would often use them to store those jazzy lighting sequences >>for the front panel. The EPROM was built into the TTL/CMOS circuitry, >>rather than sitting on an address and data bus. >> > > >The ERPOMS where used to simulate complex logic, just as an FPGA or GA can >be used today >Dennis I've used EPROMS (and fuse link PROMS, remember them :-)) as logic replacement devices on occasion in the dim dark past. A VERY rapid state machine can be made with a package of D flip flops and an EPROM. Faster than many uPs for a limited task. An excellent example of such a beast (used a fuse link prom I think) was the Apple 2 floppy disk controller - The IWM - stood for Integrated Woz Machine (designed by Steve Wozniak) and used a state machine and no uP. Very very simple logic - much cheaper than the state of the art then and for some time which was the eg (ugh) WD1771 FDC. I have seen EPROM used in such designs occasionally in more recent times - EA mag I think used one as a divider to convert period to frequency in I think a car computer. Also useable for eg display decoders. regards Russell McMahon --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 17:58:20 EDT From: "Karl A. Uscroft" Subject: Re: PIC history, PIC1650, AY-3-8910, SP0256 et al. To: PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 16 Wow, what have I started, I just mention the AY-3-8910 and bang I find that it's as old as I am. Just to say that at work (amusements, video games : slots : the like) we are still getting new machines, brand new, never been played (except for testing) with AY-3-8910's in with the Microchip name on yet they say they don't do them anymore. I think that someone has a big box full of them and keeps sending them to the amusement industry. PS, the SPO256-AL2 brings back memories, used one on a robot in a project a few years back, vioce worked, robot didn't :-( . --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 18:12:16 EDT From: "Karl A. Uscroft" Subject: Re: PIC history, PIC1650, AY-3-8910, SP0256 et al. To: PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 16 > Steve Thackery > Suffolk, England. I have to agree with Steve on this one we have lots of old video games in storage at work (amusement arcade) and the work that went into the circuit boards full of old TTL and CMOS is far more creative then anything produced today which is all software and a few, very large, dedicated chips which when go faulty you just have to bin them and get a new one. But the old stuff is just a pure art form if you ask me. I would like to see if any of the new electronic engineers out of university could, from ground up design a slot machine with three reels plus nudges and payout using just 12volt relays. We have on at work and it's a master piece. OK I think most could, but how many would go straight for the CPU's + PIOs , etc. > I disagree! I think it would most likely receive lots of admiring glances > from modern electronics designers. The thing is, no-one would dream of > implementing Pong in hardware these days: it's just crying out for a > software solution. Similarly, video signal generation is just handed over > to a two buck chip these days. > > No, I would say that for sheer ingenuity, electronics designs probably > peaked back in the late '70s (i.e. before the widespread adoption of > microprocessors and microcontrollers, and VLSI chips). I've seen some > amazing stuff done with boards chock full of CMOS and TTL chips (plus the > inevitable analogue driver board bristling with power transistors and heat > sinks!). You gotta hand it to those guys, they were just brilliant. > > I have a pal who used to work in the games machine industry (Bell Fruit in > the UK). Monstrously complex non-microprocessor designs continued on for > ages in their industry. The manufactures had access to a wide range of > functional modules which they'd developed over the years and were very well > tried and tested. They had a tremendous amount invested in those designs, > and they had a tremendous amount invested in the expertise and training of > their electronics guys. Some games machines from the late 70's and even > early 80's were just packed with PCBs, every one plastered with CMOS and > TTL. You can imagine that it was pretty scary to throw that lot away and > start again with a microprocessor! It means a complete revamp of your > entire development and manufacturing environment, plus a big churn of staff, > plus another revamp of the support infrastructure........ > > There was also an interesting interim period when they would use EPROMS - > i.e. a microprocessor support chip - in non-micro applications. For > example, they would often use them to store those jazzy lighting sequences > for the front panel. The EPROM was built into the TTL/CMOS circuitry, > rather than sitting on an address and data bus. > > Ah, reminiscing is good for the soul! Or are we old farts just being boring > bastards? > > Steve Thackery > Suffolk, England. Ye, reminiscing is good for the soul.